In the Mailbox
Date: 11/30/2002 2:18:23 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: "A.A." aa@xx.com
To: norimuster@aol.com
Did you ever think that there may be people who have come to Krsna Consciousness who love it...faults and all? I was raised Catholic...look at the state of the church now....priests being busted left and right for sexual abuse not to mention the crusades and the inquisitions.BUT yet MILLIONS still follow this faith and many still come. Every faith has its problems, and watch dogs are needed, but if I had come to your page before meeting MANY wonderful and caring TRUE devotees, I would of ran...fast. Thats the problem....where is the responsibility? Do you bother to point out the positives of the movement...I've failed to find them on this page. I'm not trying to criticize...but fault finding is easy. The negative is in the front! The effect your page has on people could be the wrong one. I would hate to see the entire world become purely cynical. Look were cynicism has gotten our world to date...read a newspaper. When it comes to ISKCON...you have had your experience...why try to form an oppinion for someone else. You can condemn the person/s that wronged you but not the process. You may find fault in the president but that doesnt mean democracy is wrong. Im sooooo glad I didnt see your negative page first...I would have missed out on a life changing philosophy that has brought me to a greater state of being. Srila Prabhupada said, to paraphrase, "If your looking to be cheated, you'll be cheated" that goes for the faith, the people, and the entire movement. In retrospect maybe this page is a good thing...it will weed out the less serious people who would probably fault find and want to be cheated. Those of a serious spiritual nature will not judge "a book" by its cover...but look for the deeper meaning. I didnt notice any rebuttles to your page in the letters section...so I take it you dont publish those ones...so I'm not expecting this one to be....but give someone the benefit of the doubt...maybe the one out of a million that falls in love w/ Krsna, and visits this page, wont be cheated!
~A.A. Hare Krishna!
P.S. Srila Prabhupada fought hard to get the title "cult" removed from his beloved faith and I believe he would take it as a personal slap in the face that you connect Him with this title. He fought it all the way to the U.S. supreme court...they recognize Krsna Consciousness as a bona fide RELIGION. Just like the Christian cult, the Buddhist cult, the Muslim cult, the Jewsish cult, etc, etc. "CULT" is a BAD word to simple minded americans...its as bad as the other four letter word! Any person who listens to and agrees with another person on any subject is in definition part of a "cult". Whats the name of your "cult"? again...
A.A. Hare Krishna!
Dear A.A.,
ISKCON and the Catholic Church have much in common, especially in terms of their child abuse problems and problems with accepting money from gangsters. Also, they both function under a stern Piscean hierarchical structure. I was born a Lutheran and two of my ancestors were ministers: my great grandfather Rev. Carl Runge in Hanover, Iowa, and my great, great grandfather Rev. Peter Heinrich Dicke in Wisconsin.
While you may identify with the Catholics who stick with the Church right or wrong, I identify with my ancestors who broke away from the Church. Martin Luther believed in the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ, but rejected organizational corruption. It's the same with me. I believe in the teachings of Lord Chaitanya and Lord Krishna, but reject the corruption that took root in ISKCON after the Americans took control and ruined it, starting in approximately 1970.
While Luther went on to found a religion in his own name, I will not do that. I'm just a reporter, a writer, who tells it like I sees it. I have no aspiration to convert people to Nori-ism. In fact, I reject all organizational structure and wish instead to guide people toward the Aquarian model, which Joseph Campbell explained in his book An Open Life (see excerpt: gurus.html). I encourage people to develop personal spirituality without joining any specific group. That means sampling many philosophies and deciding for yourself what you believe. You remain the captain of your own steamboat, so to speak.
As for the U.S. government, I don't blindly follow that any more than I would blindly follow cult leaders again. As for slapping Srila Prabhupada in the face, the gurus and child abusers were the ones who did that. I never met Srila Prabhupada in person, but have shown him only respect and devotion in my prayers. After writing the ISKCON World Review for eight years, I felt that I'd done enough to promote ISKCON. In 1988 I resigned my position and moved away from the temple, then wrote Betrayal of the Spirit as my last attempt to help ISKCON. My book is full of constructive criticism. Publisher's Weekly called it "An important testimony that might be instructive to those involved in the leadership of any religious movement." (See full review: reviews.html)
I ran the manuscript by the Deities, Srila Prabhupada, and many devotees before it went to publication. I encourage you to read it and think it over. Please consider the people that you may have left behind (or will leave behind) when you "surrender" to ISKCON and cut ties to your "material" family, friends, school, and career.
Sincerely,
Nori
Subject: Re: reply
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:01:00 -0500
From: A.A. aa@xx.com
To: nori@
References: 1
Ive been associating w/Devotees for five yrs and reading Prabhupadas books for close to ten. I never left anyone or anything. I changed some of my perspectives. Im a father of two daughters w/ a new wife and an ex. that I get along better w/now since the split. My friends and family have been completely supportive of my spiritual direction and applaud it. Your response didnt do much in answering the questions. I'm not saying I'm some "company" man when it comes to ISKCON, I have my problems w/them too.BUT im not about to turn my back on something that Prabhupada cherished...he said stick w/ISKCON, so I am.
Humans suck...we are all fallen and it seems the worst of us become leaders, but I CANNOT CONDEMN THE PROCESS! Im not asking anyone to change their beliefs or stance...just consider the reaction to your words.
Im not some young punk who thinks the music and food are cool, im not some Guru groupie flattered by some old guys attention, Im a spirit soul trying to get back home and and if it wasnt for ISKCON and its faults I wouldnt be on the right path. Nothing is perfect...not the Lutherans, not the Catholics, and not the Hare Krishna Devotees and the only perfect thing is God and that is the goal, to try and grab just a little of that perfection in this material life, by whatever path gets you there. I just hate to see people begin a journey and then have it misguided because of someone elses experience. I believe you missed my point in the letter. Im not concerned with you or your problem w/ organized religion or anything else, its the way you approach it in a completely negative way (the page). Give people the benefit of the doubt, we are not all wusses who need someone to point all the bad things in life. ISKCON does need help and negative criticism will not help. Your book may not be negative but your page is. If the negative approach is what you need to sell your book...then so be it. Just remember...every action has an equal and opposite reaction...the law of Karma!
You need not reply..im not looking for an answer, im just hoping you may take into consideration other peoples feelings when it comes to their belief system. I was hurt ,and many others would be too, when I typed in "Hare Krishna" in the search field and up pops the negative veiw.. Despite all its faults and all the negative press...I'll stand by my belief and Srila Prabhupada, and thats all that counts.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!
Your servant,
A.A.
Dear A.A.,
Thank you for your letter. I disagree with you that "humans suck." In fact, I believe humans don't suck. Mark Twain said, "There's a good spot in every person, though you'll be a while in finding it sometimes."
It was nice talking with you.
Your friend always,
Nori
Letter dated 08 May 2001
Dear Slyvain,
thank you for your letter. I was a member of the Hare Krishna organization from 1978 to 1988, then left and wrote my book, "Betrayal of the Spirit." My website for the book is http://surrealist.org. Sincerely,
Nori
P.S. I will answer your quetions below
pouler04 wrote:
hi!! I would like to have some information about the religion of HARE KRISHNA...
1. What is the origin of this religion? Where is it from? Who invented it?
Krishna worship is an ancient sect of the Hindu religion. It started when Krishna lived on Earth - historians disagree, but according to some it was approximately 5,000 years ago.
The Hare Krishna movement, also known as ISKCON, the International Society for Krishna CONsciousness, came to America in 1965 with the guru A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. He was a disciple of the guru Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, who headed a similar organization based in Bengal, India.
2.Where do you guys pray, if u do beleive in praying?
The organization established temples in cities around the world. However, there are many people who believe in the religion but reject the organization (sort of like the Catholic Church). In the Hindu religion, home worship is traditionally more important, so many Krishna devotees have home altars and worship at home. The religion does include the concept of prayer. Many Krishna devotees are so in love with Krishna that they only pray for more love and more service to Krishna. So instead of praying for material things like money, fame, power, etc., the prayers are in the spirit of Jesus' Lord's Prayer: "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
3. What are the days that the religion celabrates?
In ISKCON there was a year long calendar of holy days. The most important is Krishna's birthday (Janmastami, Krishna's Appearance), which falls eight days after the full moon in August-September. They also celebrate the appearance (birth) and disappearance (death) anniversaries of their gurus and the appearance of various incarnations of Krishna (avatars). There are other holy days associated with Krishna, such as the swing ceremony (dola yatra), the cart festival (ratha yatra), and the month of remembering Krishna (kartik). This is a long subject, I can go into it in more detail if you want.
4.What are your beleif?
Like I said, I left the group in 1988. But it was only because I had problems with the organization.
I believe that human beings tend to mess up religions with their humanness. However, even after my bitter experiences in the group (read my book), I still love Krishna, still believe in Krishna and occasionally still chant. I also love the Buddhist philosophy of compassion, and I've also learned tai chi since leaving the temple.
5.Who is your god or gods?
Like I said, I believe in Radha-Krishna as mother-father god. I also believe the Mother Earth is a mother goddess and that people are wrong when they say the earth (and all material nature) is "false." This is denying the Mother's existence.
6. Can you please give me information on your symbole of the religion of HARE KRISHNA?
I'm not sure what you mean by symbol, but the "chakra" or disk of Vishnu, is the symbol they put on the top of the temples. The taoists and Buddhists have the yin/yang symbol, Christians the cross, Jews the star of David, etc., and for Hindus it's the chakra. The chakra looks kinda like a round power saw blade.
I am a 10th grade student in Chelmford,Ontario, Canada and I would really like to get a return letter that answers my questions. I am really intressted in your religion
Thank you, Slyvain G.
Thank you for your questions Slyvain. Just be wary of groups that claim to have "the answer." Your curiosity is wonderful. I recommend that you just study everything on your own and follow your own truth. If you ever find yourself in a situation where some group (or some individual) is asking too much of you in terms of your time or money, just remember that humans mess up religions. I'm thankful that Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist religions are home-based, rather than temple-based. Also, as to the need to have a guru. This may have been true in past ages, but in this age the Universe is asking us to grow up, to direct our own reality. So have many gurus: read books, listen to lectures, talk to people, open up to messages from the natural world. Joseph Campbell (author of Hero with a Thousand Faces) is one of my favorite teachers, even though I've never met him. Many Hindus go to listen to gurus and honor them, but there's no rule that you have to pick one guru and make them like a surrogate parent (that's what the hare Krishnas preach). So watch out for that stuff.
If you visit my website and have any further questions, please write back. Also, if you read my book someday, I would love to hear your feedback. Good luck on your report.
-nori
Letter dated 18 Sept. 00
Hi again Nori:
I read your article on "Addictive ISKCON"; this is a great article and a great summation of the situation. Do you know Madhu Pandit (Mark Lowrie)... the actor/musician, etc., etc, the guy who played Lord Rama in the Ramayana that was shot at New Vrindavan? I had already been conducting my own investigation into K.C., among other things spiritual, when we met back in 1992 at a radio station we were both hired to work at at the same time. M.P. was initiated by Prabhupada back in about '74 I think; long since "blooped" as they say, doing his own thing now, but nonetheless my first "Real Hare Krishna" in the flesh, and his descriptions of the philosophy and the whole Krishna Scene during our many conversations served to whet my appetite even more. Fast forward to 1996 when we both ended up on the west coast, first in Victoria, then eventually in Vancouver. I was encouraged to check out the temple here in Vancouver, and it was jokingly put that I was actually going in to 'infiltrate' and "write an expose'", har, har! In actuality, that's not too far from the truth of the situation. I came in good faith, open to the philosophy based on my readings for a number of years before coming anywhere near a temple, I saw, watched and observed; became outraged, and eventually left in disgust. Although let me make it clear that I like the philosophy .... wonderful philosophy. I believe Krishna is God .... I believe Prabhupada was a wonderful scholarly Indian gentleman (although maybe a bit out of his depth in his choice of audience) and I believe he did a very worthwhile and necessary thing by bringing these otherwise obscure Indian scriptures to an English-speaking readership: I just don't like ISKCON.
It's hard to see where you're going or even, where you've come from for that matter, when you're living on the temple property .... in the thick of it. I had to step back a bit from the whole thing and do some extra-curricular reading, which helped me get a much better perspective on what was going on. Your Betrayal Of The Spirit was one of those things I read; also Monkey On A Stick. The information in those books combined with what I could see with my own eyes every day living at a temple didn't really leave me with any other choice than but to leave. The conclusion I drew was that ISKCON was basically rotten to the core right from DAY ONE. The perverted examples of humanity that Prabhupada drew around him to be his first, most senior disciples right from the days on Skid Row in New York. The notion that you can take a white guy, hippie, whose previous modus operandi was taking acid, drinkin' beer and eating cheeseburgers, and instantaneously transform him into someone who can become guru, as good or next to God, and therefore worthy of my worship..... well I'm sorry, but I just can't accept that.
When you have someone like Prabhupada bringing a philosophy as rigid and fundamentalist as Krishna Consciousness, with such extreme definitions of black and white to the audience that he did, well, I don't see how anyone could honestly be expected to follow. And I think that the information you provide in the "Addictive ISKCON" article also helps shed more understanding on this issue. I've seen a number of addicts in the Vancouver temple community .... People who are addicted to everything from coffee to heroin and everything in between. And it's this 'all-or-nothing' behaviour in the addict that makes them perfect candidates for building their lives around an organization like ISKCON. Nothing is done half-assed; whether it's drugs or religion, they want to go all the way. Then of course I've seen them burn out really quickly and become totally lost. Most of them are on welfare (the Lazies and Crazies syndrome) and because they've done nothing with themselves for up to 20 years in some cases - other than be "Hare Krishnas" - where do they have to go? I don't know how it is at other temples, but after observing the comings and goings at the one in this city over the last four years, it seems that all the nuts eventually end up at the Hare Krishna Temple sooner or later.
Another problem I had was what I considered to be a constant need on the part of devotees to "defeat" other points of view. I was always hearing about how Prabhupada or Lord Chaitanya or someone was always "smashing" someone's else's philosophy or soundly "defeating" the other person in a religious or philosophical argument. I just simply want to understand religious truth and try to live my life in a proper way. I'm not interested in preaching at, evangelizing, smashing or defeating anyone..... what's with that? I have a friend who is into Sai Baba in a big way; been to his ashram in India, the whole trip. He also lived on the [ISKCON] temple property for a while, but was "advised" not to talk about Sai Baba while living on the property. Hari Sauri's Transcendental Diary about his travels with Prabhupada refers to Sai Baba as being merely a magician and "mentally retarded"; no doubt someone else who had to be exposed and defeated as "bogus". These kind of 'all-or-nothing' fundamentalist attitudes were a big reason why I gave up on mainstream Christianity and started looking into alternative ways to approach God some 20 years ago. But obviously this type of extremism is present on any path.
I'd like to find some information - and maybe you know of some - on the subject of What "Type" Of Person Joins The Hare Krishna Movement? It's easy to say you've 'renounced' the world and are gonna go join the Hare Krishnas if you haven't really got anything going for yourself in the first place. I'm curious as to the type of person that came to ISKCON in the late 60's/early70's, figured 'this is it' and has managed to stay ever since. In my experience of the whole scene now, 30 years down the line, sure, you will find the odd one here and there that's still hanging on, maintaining the principles. But the majority of the Prabhupada disciples in my purview have all fallen victim to the Madhu Pandit Syndrome; they're all pretty well off doing their own thing somewhere and concocting their own approach to the philosophy. After the charismatic founder passes on, the whole structure collapses. But it's good for me that I had the experience I had. I see that one can practice sincerely on one's own and still make progress. In my case though, it's better not to go anywhere near the temple or have anything to do with the community.
Thanks for your input and your book once again.
Yours sincerely
Tim H.
Dear Tim,
Thanks for letting me print your letter. I hope that others will gain some insight from your observations.
-nori
Older Letters
In a message dated 7/3/98 7:06:09 PM, you wrote:
Hello,
Can I still be a devotee privately at home without having to get involved with all of the politics?
--M
Dear M., Yes! You can find a lot of fulfillment that way. Most Hindus practice at home, especially in America where there are hardly any temples. They visit holy people to take their blessings. Please hang onto your common sense and live your life as you want to live it.
-Nori
In a message dated 6/27/98 5:02:24 AM, you wrote:
Dear Nori,
Since leaving iskcon, how do you think of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami? Do you ever look at any of his books or read any of his materials anymore? I just can't even open the books because of what I feel is a oppressive and separatist energy--them and us--especially toward women-bodied souls, and souls who might be at a different place on their path.
--Gati Devi Moore
Dear GD
. . . and don't forget racism. Chauvinsim, judgmentalism and racism are part of Hinduism. I say "ism" because that's what humans do to perfectly good religions. In the pure sense, the Hindu religion is a collection of beliefs and practices that evolve to mirror the culture. There are some Hindu sects, such as the Devi sects, that place a high value on the feminine. I wish these schools were more prominent in the Hindu world, because they foster love and harmony with the Earth. I believe chauvinistic religions are responsible for the destruction of the earth. They denigrate the feminine. Their doctrine states that the feminine and nature are evil, mysterious forces to be conquered. Prabhupada had some chauvinistic and sectarian attitudes, cultural baggage from the patriarchal forms of the Hindu religion. For example, he said that women were less intelligent on account of having smaller brains. I see those attitudes in Prabhupada's books, but I usually I just skip the parts that bother me, or I study the Sanskrit and try to figure out what the verse is really saying in Sanskrit.
It bothers me that ISKCON people are narrow minded and dogmatic about their scriptures, like you'll go to hell if you question anything. If you criticize Srila Prabhupada in any way, they call you a heretic. Actually, the scriptures say to question a guru and question everything before you surrender.
Whatever comments about women Prabhupada made, I believe the BBT editors exaggerated even more. When Prabhupada used to plead with his disciples, "Don't change my books," I think he meant "Don't change the books I have dictated onto tape." Of course, the transcripts were heavily edited and the tapes destroyed.
I believe that certain GBCs, gurus and BBT Trustees had a vested interest in putting Prabhupada on a pedestal. First, they convince everyone that he's invicible and perfect; second, they change his books to suit themselves; and third, they inherit his power. In essence, some of Srila Prabhupada's most prominent disciples actually usurped his legacy.
In a message dated 6/27/98 2:24:35 AM, you wrote:
Nori,
What do you think of Urmila dasi? In your book, you described her as preaching the subservience of women to men at a Vaishnava conference. On the other hand, in "Priti-laksanam," you described her as one of ISKCON's most accomplished women, and as someone who has been pushing for an expanded role for women.
---V
Dear V,
That's a good observation, let me clear that up. I see myself as being fifty steps to the left of Urmila on the issue of women's rights, but she is about ten steps to the left of the dominant male iskcon leaders. ("Left" being liberal on the issue.) She is part of the structure of iskcon and over the years she has fought for better treatment for women and children.
-n
Dear Nori,
Does the Krishna Movement still maintain a golden temple in West Virginia ?
-- Patrick C. Labbe, RN MSN
Patrick,
Good question. The Palace is still standing, devotees still live there, but is it part of ISKCON, the official organization? It depends on who you ask and when. In 1987 the GBC (governing board of ISKCON) excommunicated the guru, Kirtanananda Swami, and all of his followers and satellite temples. At that time, the devotees denounced the excommunication, declaring it null and void. Later Kirtanananda was convicted of conspiracy and rackateering charges and he is serving time in prison. In the meantime, the property has gone back and forth between being ISKCON and being independent. I believe there are people in the GBC who want to bring New Vrindaban back into the ISKCON fold, while others wish to disassociate from it because of possible legal and financial complications that might arise from the rampant criminal enterprise that once thrived there. See my book for details on that.
[Ed's. note: In Sept. 1998 the GBC voted New Vrindaban back into the ISKCON fold.]
Dear Nori,
A year ago or so, a devotee told me that Mukunda had talked you into removing some parts of your book before it was published. I was hoping that you could clarify the matter for me. Please describe any influence that Mukunda or the GBC had on the final contents of the book. Did he, or they, visit you personally? Were their dealings with you in line with Vaishnava etiquette? What sort of pressure, guilt or intimidation did they use on you, if any? Were you threatened in any way?
-- Rdasa
Dear Rdasa,
I did rewrite sections of Betrayal of the Spirit based on feedback from devotees at BBTI (Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International, Sweden) and ISKCON Communications (Mukunda Goswami's ministry in Potomac, Maryland). I'm glad to say that the devotees acted in a totally Vaishnava-like way, with the utmost integrity. I was grateful to have their critical input and I am totally satisfied with the way the book came out. We did our editing via email and fax.
The sections I reworked for BBTI were the first few pages of Chapter 10 ("The Guru Issue") and the first few pages of Chapter 13 ("The Revolution of Guru Reform").
Rewriting these sections gave me time to think some things over and explain them more clearly and honestly. Mukunda Goswami asked me to change the title because he thought the word 'betrayal' was too strong, but I decided to keep the title.
Dear Nori,
I just finished your book Betrayal of the Spirit and wanted to tell you how much I appreciated it. I am also a former member of ISKCON (for 16 years) and I found your book to be a very accurate portrayal of what life was like in the movement.
-CN
Dear CN,
Thank you. There are many more of us out here.
-- Nori
Letter from a devotee's mother
Your book was recommended as the most current and factual account of the ISKCON movement. My daughter is in another country and I have just found out that she is involved. I read your book overnight, and found it to be very enlightening and frightening. As a Mother searching for answers to provide my daughter on Thursday (I'm flying to see her), I would appreciate your input as to how I might be able to deter her from becoming more than a fringe player (I hope). I do know that she is involved with the temple president. I know how you valued your father's advice and I hope that I can show my daughter enough facts to have her come home both emotionally and physically. Thanking you in advance.
Nori's reply:
Hang in there & be her friend. Encourage her to practice Krishna consciousness at home (chant, eat veggie food, keep her own deities, 4-regs., etc., if she's attracted to Hinduism), but regarding ISKCON, keeping one's distance as a congregational member is good advice at this time, since the organization is still sorting out its problems. ISKCON's situation is a tangled family affair, so why barge in? There's a lot of mud slinging just now over issues the leaders have been covering it up for 20 years. Whether these rumors are true or not, what a terrible fight to put oneself in the middle of.
Often they get bright, productive people to join by "cultivating" them. That means setting up elaborate dinners, giving them special treatment, extra attention, introducing them to interesting members, etc. Once she joins & puts on a sari, however, she'll learn about austerity and chauvinism. I explained that in my book.
Dear Nori Muster, I have read your book with great interest. Myself, I am the mother of a Krishna devotee in Sweden and I am very frustrated over the way the Hare Krishnas look at their women. I must say I admire your integrity and your courage to leave Iskcon when it did not correspond with your views. I am afraid that my daugther fully accepts what is being said about women. Before joining the Hare Krishnas she would never ever have accepted being less intelligent that the man.
I found on http://www.vnn.org/europe/9803/01-1513/index.html a conversation between Harikesa Swami [the guru for Sweden] and his disciple Mehru which scares me. Nothing seems to have improved within the movement as they say. Could you please comment on this conversation and give me your opinion. I would be much appreciated. I find it extremely difficult to accept the nine times more lust with women -- what about all the awful rapes and sexual abuses within Iskcon toward children they were all made by men and not lusty women!!!!!!!!
There is a Swedish ex-member of Iskcon who has also written a book in Swedish about the Hare Krishnas. Her name is Lotta Danielsson and she lived in the ashram around 1985 and tells similar stories as you do but in a different way she speaks a lot of her own feelings and she really felt fooled (she was kidnapped and deprogrammed -- what is your opinion about that?)
Looking forward to receiving your reply.
Best regards,
G.G.
Dear G.G.,
Thank you for your letter. There are no easy answers. I hope some of the materials at this web site help. Yes, they are chauvinistic; yes, they will probably always be that way. I'm currently doing research on the child abuse, which was particularly severe in the decade following Srila Prabhupada's death. It seems that all their repression must surface somewhere, and unfortunately, children are the weakest and most defenseless members.
Thanks for the information about the VNN web site, that site is listed on the link page, and they are pretty good about printing controversial subject matter. Also, thanks for telling me about the book by Lotta Danielsson, I had not seen that. Regarding deprogramming. It may work for some families, but most of the devotees I knew who were deprogrammed just came back to the movement rejecting their families all the more. I appreciated my father's approach, which was to be supportive, rather than coercive.
